The column’s title said it all, “A War We Just Might Win.” After an 8 day fact finding tour in Iraq, they have concluded that the surge is working. In addition, they recommend that the troops should not be pulled out before the end of 2008.

Shea-Porter and her fellow travelers have not only embraced defeat; they have kissed it on both cheeks and raised the white flag of surrender. They routinely give those who vow to destroy us every hope of success. If the troop surge works, it puts her in an untenable position. What am I saying? She is already there.

Shea-Porter says she supports the troops and that her husband was in the military, so she understands their plight in having to follow, at the very least, “immoral” orders. But her actions demonstrate on a daily basis that her position requires that our troops be killed to prove that we face imminent defeat.

This has to make for awkward dinner conversation. “Yes, dear, I know you were a soldier, but if more of our troops die then we can get them out sooner.”

We do agree on one thing, Carol, that war is horrific and gut wrenching. But the enemy came looking for us and Spain and France and Denmark and England…

Now that there appears to be a real hope of stabilizing Iraq, you and your pals are left to hope for a Tet style offensive before the September report comes out. It makes my skin crawl.

I have only one suggestion, Carol. Don’t get the cider ready for your defeat celebration just yet.

Spain, France, Denmark and England, and us. How much are the others pitching in? I've given up hope on it being paid for by oil revenue like we were told.

Here's a newsflash, increased debt means increased taxes. That is to responsible people.

If the lives of our troops are as important as most campaign slogans, why is Congress now taking a month off?

How can Carol both be against the war and for our troops getting killed? Ya lost me again. Most people like me are against the war BECAUSE we love the troops. I want my bud Jay home alive. Let them settle thier differences themselves. What if they become a democracy and Al Quieda gets elected? It would have been kind of a waste of time to push democracy there under the guise of fighting terror. Remember, in Palestine they elected Hamas. Is that what we're spending our money on? To help them fairly elect our enemy?

Today in history: In 1974 Richard Nixon resigns after a wiretapping scandal. Only he didn't hijack the justice system. He allowed it to play out.

This is absurd--and just more of the same old crap..
Michael O’Hanlon has continually stated that the war is going well.
Here’s a man who deals in misleading statements about Iraq:
---------------------------------------------
His quotes from Sept 2003:
" …on balance the Iraq mission is going fairly well . . . But most indicators are now favorable in Iraq ...In my judgment the administration is basically correct that the overall effort in Iraq is succeeding."

There is obviously violence...But you're talking about specific, isolated acts [of violence] just like you would get in an American city. I'm not trying to say that this is a country at peace, but overall, we really do run most of the country together with our Iraqi partners and the resistance forces are very small pockets who operate only at a given moment here or there. .

More quotes from March 2004:
"Coalition forces are killing or arresting more than 50 insurgents a day, at that pace, one might think the war should be won by summer. . . .Overall, the glass in Iraq is probably about three-fifths full."
----------------------------------------

O'Hanlon's visits to Iraq were sponsored by the Defense Department. Very interesting. Who did he talk to in Iraq on his “fact-finding mission”? “We talked primarily to American officials. However, we could be quite prying and we could really push them..”
Very impressive—this man has real credibility. We definitely should follow his recommendations!

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that the kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way,"

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y.

We already have a draft. We take poor kids and only offer them college aid if they enlist, then continually send em back on duty over and over and over. Has anybody seen the Bush twins?

60% of the people oppose the war, and 80% of all people (88% of people 18-29) oppose the draft. That means there is 20% who are pro-war but anti-sacrifice.

The brutal stoning of 17 year old Duaa Khalil Aswad on April 7th by members of the Kurdish Yazidi sect and the resulting retaliation is proof that the Iraqi people are nowhere near ready to unite. We're wasting our time and precious resources over there. Remember when we were so outraged that Saddam Hussien gassed the Kurds? The Kurds did this to one of thier own kids! Why are we still defending them?

A teenage girl lies dead on the ground in a pool of her own blood.

Her once groomed hair is cast across her face like a rag doll’s, her skirt pulled up to complete her humiliation.

In another image, she is seen lying on her side, her face battered and bloodied, barely recognisable.

The concrete block used to smash in her face lies next to her.

Du’a Khalil Aswad was beaten, kicked and stoned for 30 minutes at the hands of a lynch mob before one of her attackers launched a carefully aimed fatal blow.

Du’a Khalil Aswad: Killed by a lynch mob for falling in love

The murder was carried out in public, watched by hundreds of men cheering and yelling. Du’a’s crime? To fall in love with a Sunni boy. Her family practised the Yezidi religion.

The Sunnis and Yezidis hate each other. When Du’a ran away with her Sunni boyfriend, a sentence of death was passed on her.

This act of medieval savagery took place last month in a town in northern Iraq, in the fledgling ‘democracy’ created by Bush and Blair when they invaded the country in 2003 and ‘freed’ its people.

The sickening scenes, which defy belief in every sense, were captured by some of the observers and participants who thought it would be proper to record these harrowing events as some sort of memento.

Dave, I understand that you feel a persona; stake in this because of your friend Jay. My forty year old borther in law is soon to be in Afganistan. I've known him since he was two. I want him to come back. But we can't make foreign policy based on our feelings for these two guys.

qpenta, Der Speigal, a German publication - also virulently anti Bush, came out last week with an article favorable to the American presence in Iraq. Come on now, you know you want to sing the Star Spangled Banner right now. Let loose. It will make you feel better.

Excellent-our military has managed to pacify some of the combatants. Let's declare victory and move away from this Pandora's Box we've opened-up in Iraq. Any "victory" in Iraq is temporary. When we leave they'll beat the crap out of each other.
The "Star Spangled Banner" comment ties-in with your basic "you're a traitor if you're against the war" & "you're against the soldiers if you're against the war" stance.

"{Shea-Porter's] position requires that our troops be killed to prove that we face imminent defeat" This is utter garbage...

I listen to the Star Spangled Banner 5 times a week. Not including sports. I was able to recognize our error 4 years ago. 3 years before Jay went over. Some of us just take longer to learn. It's ok, we can wait. We still have a long way to go before we match the death toll of Vietnam. But we will come home someday. But God forbid we admit the mistake before the next election.
If somebody bashed you daughter's head in with a cinder block, wouldn't you want to kill them? Goddamn right! In Iraq they actually do. It's proof of the deep differences between the people of Iraq. (it's called a civil war) They aren't even close to being united. There is no 'United Provinces of Iraq'. We can't afford to be the police of the world. We can't even control our cities' gangs here at home. It's time we rebuild America first, then rebuild Iraq if we have any money left. God Bless America! Stop defending the stoners.

Of course Germany would favor somebody else doing the dirty work in Iraq. What have they scarificed? Like I said, 60% oppose the war, but 80% oppose the draft.
Like I've also said before, my biggest bitch is we are footing the bill while Iraq's neighbors contribute little or nothing. Maybe we could get them to patrol the Mexican border instead. Sounds like a fair trade.

You don't really want to hear me sing. But I taught myself to play the Star Spangled Banner on the guitar 33 years ago just for an exercise.

You don't really want to hear me sing. But I taught myself to play the Star Spangled Banner on the guitar 33 years ago just for an exercise.

qpenta - I'm not an America love or leave it type. Dissent is great stuff. It just sometimes leaves the dissenter in a tough spot. If the surge works ie casuality count drops, then Shea Porter is wrong. If casualties rise then she is correct and we are failing. In essence for her to be right more of our troops have to die. That's gotta make for tough dinner talk. "Yes dear I know some of your friends are still in harms way. But if they die then I'm proven correct and can get reelected." I'm not sure I see how she can look herself in the mirror in the morning. But then when she prattles on about supporting the troops - wow! With friends like her the military needs no enemies.

You don't want to hear me sing. But I taught myself to play the Star Spangled Banner on the guitar 33 years ago as an exercise.

I don't think the death toll is the measure, but if the people can unite under one government and get it's sh*t together.

"To get mired down inside Iraq in a conflict thats been raging for generations in the interest of trying to dictate who's going to govern in Iraq. That is not something that we are prepared to see American forces do.
...For the US to get involved militarily determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern in Iraq strikes me as the classic definition of a quagmire."

-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney in 1991 after liberating Kuwait

So, Shea-Porter believes the surge is ineffective and wants to withdraw the troops.
How does “her position require that our troops be killed to prove
that we face imminent defeat.”? Do you mean she hopes the surge
will not be successful and therefore wants American casualities?
If so, its a rather astonishing assumption on your part!
Again I hear a “she’s against the war, so she’s a traitor” deal.
The surge is and will be successful. It will allow us to reduce conflict
on a temporary basis, but will not change the cause. This will be an excuse
to continue our participation in a dead-end situation. You like to talk
about an American “defeat” in Iraq. We have superior forces and technology.
There will be no defeat for the US. There will only be a gradual series of
casualties for our armed forces, as we try to police a civil war. At some point
like Vietnam, the public will dictate that we need to end our presence there. This is already happening. Why do you think your buddy Shea-Porter was elected?
She was elected with a mandate to end the war in Iraq. No other reason.
You say the “enemy came looking for us”. Very true and after our engagement
in Afghanistan, Al Queda leadership is disorganized and on the run.
Was Iraq the "enemy who came looking for us"?
Most of the world disagrees. I'd say the Arab world definitely disagrees.
A “local franchise” of Al Queda is fighting our “attack on Islam” in Iraq. If you were a young Muslim would you join them?
What a terrible political situation for us to be in…

That quote from "chicken-hawk" Dick Cheney in 1991 is chilling.

"It's really difficult for me to come here to speak to you.
When I was told about the death of (my adopted son) Jesus (hay-soos) my entire world collapsed and was destroyed. Later I would find out that I was lied to about the way he died. I was told he came under enemy fire and was shot in the head and that was another lie. What I found out was that he stepped on an illegal, criminal North American munition. The government told me that I can't see his face because it is destroyed. And then I opened the casket and see that his face was intact.
Today lots of people are attacking me. That was discovered something that I never hid. That Jesus was not my biological son. I was told how can I cry for a son who is not yours? That apparently I'm getting rich off the story of my son. When Jesus came into my life at 9 months of age it didn't just cost me blood it cost me tears and it cost me sweat.
Enough is enough. The young people like Agustin who have children, like Pablo who has a daughter here they deserve to have a family. My grandson lost his father. So many hundreds of young people have lost thier fathers.
Jesus did not die. He is present in all of you who are here. gracias"

Excerpt from a speech by Fernando Suarez del Solar translated by Pablo Paredes at a support rally for Agustin Aguayo on 7/27/07. His son was killed on March 27, 2003. From C-span.

You say:
"If the surge works ie casualty count drops, then Shea-Porter is wrong.
If casualties rise then she is correct and we are failing. In essence for her
to be right more of our troops have to die."

Your statement makes no sense to me. Who's casualty counts--ours?
The surge’s success can’t be measured by American casualties, but rather
[by definition] our ability to reduce violence and secure Baghdad.

George Bush Jr. defines the surge: “[to] help the Iraqis carry out their campaign to put down sectarian violence and bring security to the people of Baghdad. This will require increasing American force levels…”]

We hope to avoid American loss of life, but it all depends on what it takes to achieve this mission. If casualties rise, and we achieve our stated objective, then we haven’t failed. So--please explain your logic on this!
Maybe its just a poorly conceived way for you to dump on Ms. Shea-Porter?

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